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September 2008

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Glance

N'thei's correspondence with me, which he gave permission to post.


8/10/2008

10:56 AM
Logfile from norconmush.

You paged N'thei with 'This is A'deth, what is it? I was asleep, had spaced on putting up an idle.'.
N'thei pages: It's ok. I was just getting some... second-hand commentary about "why we opened this game." But I think I've communicated what I want to-- http://blueaid.livejournal.com/59611.html --I know a lot of Pern people aren't comfortable confronting each other, but I just prefer not to burn bridges. I don't hate anyone, and being pigeon-holed as some kind of rabble-rouser gets my hackles raised.
You paged N'thei with 'Let me put something up so you can read.'.
You paged N'thei with 'Between this: http://adeth.livejournal.com/12557.html'.
From afar, N'thei nods. Quid pro quo. And-- so you know-- this isn't necessarily a response to /you specifically/. There's just a lot of talk about the whys and wherefores, and I don't think people really understand that nothing was a ham-handed decision; we-- at least 10-15 people-- took part in /every/ step of this game.
You paged N'thei with 'And this: http://norcon.spunsilk.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13#p34'.
You paged N'thei with 'And Tiriana's rants over the months about Igen on the Pern forums (among others), and things I've heard in general, it's going to be difficult to convince me that many people did not have certain motives. Igen was easily as active as Fort. The game made Tiriana the go-to person to transfer from Igen.'.
From afar, N'thei should clear that up. When Berit said "tell people who will help." We had a conversation on the public knot-- which I probably have logged somewhere, heh-- about how many people to bring over to work on things. For four days, /all/ we did was work work work, and one of the things we talked about was bringing over people that we all felt comfortable saying "hey, go do things X Y and Z," which I personally would /not/ have felt comfortable telling you to do-- because I don't know you. Until a few days ago, I didn't even know that A'deth/A'riste were the same player-- that's how uninvolved politically I am. :P
N'thei pages: I realize why it would like Igen was "selected" as to get the axe, but it wasn't like that. We thought about a lot of different Weyr options. TGW had more representation on this game than ISW at the time, for example, but we selected to remove TGW and IGW simply for aesthetic principles. We thought, for a time, we were going to be IGW, FTW, and BEN.
Long distance to N'thei: Guest1 points to the pages and the post that he linked to. I am aware that your intentions may well have been good, but I've known about this stuff for quite a while, and it's being confirmed by your own weyrcouncil.
From afar, N'thei's not sure what he's supposed to see in the page on the NC forum. Can you clarify?
You paged N'thei with 'I have a migraine and you're capable of reading. Go over it again.'.
N'thei pages: If you have a migraine, perhaps we shouldn't be doing this now.
You paged N'thei with 'They last for up to five days, (I have lupus). No time like the present.'.
From afar, N'thei's not in to passive-aggressive games; we need to talk, but I can't read things through your perspective. To me, that whole post-- especially seeing as it's right there in the open-- on the NC forum is cut-and-dried. We said take-all-comers, and that's what we're doing. There's nothing in there that says "oh except IGW, they're stupid and they suck."
You paged N'thei with 'Ah. So Berit noting that the weyr council, particularly the WW, as well as some others, strenuously objected to my knowing because the whole Igen area was suspect--'.
N'thei pages: That /never happened/.
You paged N'thei with 'And making Tiriana the go-to person when she has frequently disparaged Igen is not suspect.'.
N'thei pages: That was my decision, and I had /no idea/ that she disparaged Igen.
You paged N'thei with 'She has. You may want to ask her about her ranting on those Pern Forums.'.
N'thei pages: Okay, so now look at the flipside. /I/ didn't know that, and it was seriously /me/-- me me me-- that said "hey, Tiriana might be a good person to talk to about helping people transfer in, seeing as she'll be transferring." I pushed her into the role, not the other way around, and no one else. It was her or Berit, and Berit was up to her eyeballs building FTW.
N'thei pages: No one, /no one/ ever said "let's exclude Igen." To me, I didn't page A'deth/Kassima because I don't know you guys, and would have felt weird going "can you come over here and desc stuff? thx." How awkward would that have been? XD
You paged N'thei with 'Then you've inadverdently insured that someone with a serious grudge against Igen is now the gatekeeper.'.
Long distance to N'thei: Guest1 isn't Kassima.
N'thei pages: And, knowing that, I'm happy to work around that problem and personally be the go-to person for Igen.
N'thei pages: I know-- but you two are the faces of IGW.
You paged N'thei with 'Something of which I was not aware, but which would explain Berit's explanation to me.'.
From afar, N'thei doesn't want /anyone/ excluded. That's not me, that's not who I am. The decision not to tell IGW wasn't some nefarious plot; it was just that IGW seems to have the least number of people crossing over into other areas, so you guys didn't find out through the grapevine the same way most other people did.
You paged N'thei with 'And leading questions all week.'.
You paged N'thei with 'That's not the case.'.
You paged N'thei with 'Everything Berit's said, I've read before. THis is nonsense that's been going on since before I came back in January.'.
N'thei pages: I know there is some resentment that IGW seems to get... preferential treatment? from the PernMUSH wizards, but that was not not /not/ a factor. Not at the top tier; I assure you, that only exemplifies a problem: There is no open communication on PernMUSH, something we hope to rectify through transparency here.
From afar, N'thei could give a rat's fat butt if Igen gets 40 insta-golds and 200 insta-dragons; it doesn't affect /my/ game play. And the only reason it causes so much strife is the wizards handled things so indelicately that people got their feelings hurt.
You paged N'thei with 'Any other weyr would have gotten the same assistance from the wizards. The Weyr Council has never been, not since I first joined in 93, the absolute end-all of decisions concerning the viability of weyrs.'.
N'thei pages: I agree; any other Weyr would have gotten the same assistance. The problem is-- no one was communicating anything.
You paged N'thei with 'Igen's leadership got smacked with RL and went idle. Their replacements walked after they were not given leadership almost immediately after Impression.'.
From afar, N'thei nods; I know, I was there during all that, it was /right/ when I became the WL. But that's all history; no one bears the current players of Igen any ill-will for things beyond their control.
You paged N'thei with 'Then explain to me Berit's pages and Tiriana's post. 'Undesirable'?'.
N'thei pages: And that Berit told you that we said not to tell you... I think she misinterpreted a comment about "bringing people you think will help build/desc/code instead of try to RP while we're still putting the game together" to mean "don't tell A'riste." And I apologize for that; it was /not/ our intention.
You paged N'thei with 'You are reinterpreting her words when they're very plain.'.
Tiriana has connected.
N'thei pages: Undesirables: people who are completely idle but still log in; we have several at HRW that do nothing but log in and sit on their ledges, they don't chat, don't RP. That's what undesirables are.
N'thei pages: Oh no, I know what she said, and I'm pretty sure what she meant. But what /she/ said is not what /we/ said.
You paged N'thei with 'And where would she have gotten this impression?'.
From afar, N'thei finds the log, one second.
N'thei pages: I think it happened either on my laptop or at work, but I will locate the log. :P What was said, on the public channel or in the OOC room (I forget which), was this:
Hey, has anyone told Igen?
No, I think we're waiting till we're closer to done to make a big announcement.
Should we tell them?
I have just been telling people that I know can help out. I don't know anyone at Igen, so I haven't told them.
Should we tell A'riste maybe?
Do you think he'd want to help build/code/desc?
I don't know.
Probably should just wait then.
You paged N'thei with 'You should likely be having this conversation with Berit.'.
N'thei pages: I will-- or someone will. I'm usually not a very friendly person OOC. ;)
From afar, N'thei's really, really, /really/ tremendously sorry that things came across as badly as they did. I really am.
N'thei pages: If I could take it back, I'd page you on Too as soon as we started descing.
You paged N'thei with 'I am willing to post a log of our conversation, if you wish, as a rebuttal to Berit's. Folks can make their own decisions. I appreciate your apology, but someone, somewhere, or several someones, is either jerking you around, or jerking me around.'.
From afar, N'thei concedes that we may both be getting jerked around? Which probably shouldn't make either of us feel better but hey-- at least it's a group... jerk... I really need to work on better phrasing, neh? :P
Long distance to N'thei: Guest1 hehs!
You paged N'thei with 'Why were folks avoiding the NC wizards knowing, anyway? They can't stop the creation of another game, or mass transfers out.'.
From afar, N'thei will also talk to Berit, and really appreciates you being frank with me. I hate the back-alley feel to game politics. XD --I think it was because... we're all a little afraid we won't be able to get our @decomps. We had thought PernMUSH would be up before NorCon MUSH was ready (the original timeframe had PM up early this week), and that we would get nuked or new passworded, and many of us (me!) don't have a recent @decomp.
You paged N'thei with 'There have been splinter games before, either doing direct transfers and/or folks just dropping NC and making alts elsewhere. No one's ever had to keep things secret before.'.
You paged N'thei with 'Uh, that's never happened before.'.
From afar, N'thei's usual games are WoD, and wizards/gods there are /spiteful/ beasts that @nuke players.
N'thei pages: So I tend to tread lightly.
Long distance to N'thei: Guest1 has been on Pern since 93, and that's never happened.
From afar, N'thei nods. Irrational paranoia probably, but I know I got a few "From afar, Player wonders if you have any @descs from when we RPed? In case I can't get an @decomp of my character."
You paged N'thei with 'They won't even willingly /siteban/, which is some folks' issue with them.'.
From afar, N'thei hasn't had much discourse with the wizards, which is part of the reason I was frustrated, so I erred on the side of caution. Nothing says lame like losing all your @descs. XD
N'thei pages: But that is the reason why: PM was supposed to be up before we were done, and we wanted to ensure we could "get our stuff" without being harassed. It's reassuring to know that won't happen, since I still have some things I'd like to @decomp when PM is turned on again.
You paged N'thei with 'Again, in the log I posted-- "Berit pages: No one wants to tell Igen, because Igen (Lanisa, Josilina) are friends with the wizards." (Which is not true, by the way.)'.
From afar, N'thei nods. And that was the main reason. I think probably also some people felt like we were-- I dunno-- breaking the law? Working on this game? But my personal reason to not go hunting down Dyane (not that I could, heh) was irrational fear of losing my @decomp. --Which is stupid now since I found all my descs, but hey. Text-based medium: things are bound to get lost in the translation.
You paged N'thei with 'I doubt that it'll happen /now/, even, but them finding out the way they have is somewhat rude. Most places would be reasonably justified in doing it when finding out they were given the runaround on the assumption that they would. I don't think they will.'.
You paged N'thei with 'What I think, and I may be wrong, will happen is that folks who step up as the admins of the weyrs will simply deknot those who left, and idlereaping with eventually take care of the rest.'.
From afar, N'thei nods. Which I think we're all prepared for.
Long distance to N'thei: Guest1 ?
N'thei pages: being deknotted and "written out of the story" on PernMUSH, so to speak.
From afar, N'thei personally has no ill-will toward the game. I just needed a place where things could /happen/ before I got burned out trying to work-around the status quo. Even the Weyr Council on PernMUSH was like-- seriously? Three years to rewrite a document for a pretendy-fun-time-game? I work for a huge corporation, even we move faster than that. ;)
You paged N'thei with 'By not doing so yourselves, you're forcing others to do it. Or not. I have no idea how it'll be handled. I'm not an admin at this time.'.
You paged N'thei with 'That's your right, but you've -- you, plural -- have effectively fucked over a number of players.'.
From afar, N'thei's thinking is that we're /letting/ them do it. We're giving PernMUSH the option to do with our areas what they will-- nuke them, rebuild them, spray-paint them pink, whatever /works/ for them. I'd rather know they have the flexibility to say "hey, N'thei got caught drowning baby kittens and was put to death" than me saying "no, he became a hero and died a great death."
N'thei pages: Have we? Who?
N'thei pages: Think of it this way-- if all of us here were so frustrated that we built a game in a week to play... how long would it really have been before we all quit to burnout? PernMUSH would be in the same situation, except we probably would have dragged along listlessly for months (like Zahava), and made things worse.
You paged N'thei with 'You are putting the burden of deciding what happens to so many characters on either the wizards or other players, one. You are, by leaving, leaving a fair amount of people behind to try to figure out what the heck their own characters will do now that so many of their friends are gone.'.
You paged N'thei with 'You have given people a choice: move games or lose RP that, in many cases, is formative.'.
N'thei pages: True, but is that any different than if I logged in to PernMUSH tomorrow and said "k, quitting, bye" along with half the game?
I don't recognize tomorrow.
No one to page.
You paged N'thei with 'Which is what you did, and that would not have happened anyway.'.
From afar, N'thei can vouch that Griere was ready to retire when PM came up, Satiet was trying to quit, I was looking to be done before the end of the year. So there's three that were at the end of the line.
You paged N'thei with 'First: Igen has as many active players, I will say, as Fort, as Telgar. You could have offered the place the same deal you offered everyone else.'.
N'thei pages: We are?
N'thei pages: To transfer their characters?
You paged N'thei with 'And Weyr.'.
N'thei pages: Except part of PM's problem is that it's running 5 "active" areas.
N'thei pages: And it can't support them.
You paged N'thei with 'Igen is supporting itself just fine. Igen was not consulted at all.'.
You paged N'thei with 'Or allowed to take part in any of it.'.
N'thei pages: You're saying "allowed."
N'thei pages: Two areas were going to go, no matter what. Round-table discussion came up with Igen and Telgar-- not because of activity, but because we wanted a diverse group of areas. HRW very nearly became Benden, and only didn't because we felt that Benden/Fort were too similar.
You paged N'thei with 'I'm saying, why was Igen not brought in along with everyone else during the formation of this MUSH? Beyond the reasons I've been told which, in light of any other explanation, seems rather plausible to myself and a fair amount of others?'.
You paged N'thei with 'It has been stated that Igen was not going due to inactivity.'.
You paged N'thei with 'Igen was no more inactive, since January, than Fort.'.
You paged N'thei with 'The two reasons I've been given up until now are bogus.'.
N'thei pages: Then we can't see eye-to-eye, and I'm sorry for that. You believe Igen was systematically excluded; that's not something I can change.
From afar, N'thei points to his LJ post: --After over a decade playing on the internet, after over a decade playing online games, I've learned something: people will believe what they want to believe, and nothing I can say will change that.
You paged N'thei with 'I believe that, while you may not have done so, many did.'.
You paged N'thei with 'And you've pointed out that you were in the dark about the politics.'.
N'thei pages: Yes, but I was /here/ for every round-table decision we made.
N'thei pages: Nothing /nothing/ was decided without being discussed on the channel or the OOC lounge, where anyone could partake.
You paged N'thei with 'Then someone is communicating where you did not hear it, or Berit is making things up.'.
You paged N'thei with 'Things which sound exactly like what the folks on your admin council have said since before January.'.
N'thei pages: Entirely possible, but the decision not to bring over Igen as a whole? Was made in public, out in the open.
You paged N'thei with 'Without even talking to Igen about it?'.
N'thei pages: If your beef is that Igen wasn't /told/-- all I can do is apologize. If I had known anyone at Igen, if B'yan had been online, I would have told him. But I would have felt intensely awkward paging someone I don't even know (i.e., you) to say "come help us desc stuff, typing monkey!"
N'thei pages: That Berit elected not to tell A'riste, or that she was told not to-- Griere and I were talking, and /she/ didn't say that. It's possible someone else did, and I will ask about it; because, no, that wasn't the right thing to do. I agree.
You paged N'thei with 'That is not just my beef; I've stated it, posted logs to it. I built half the grid on TooMUSH. I painted maps -- I assume they'll be used for fort on this game now, which I was not told. I helped folks come up with room descriptions that I wasn't told what for.'.
N'thei pages: If you want, I will ensure your descs and maps are not used.
Rodric arrives from the birthplace.
Rodric has arrived.
Rodric has disconnected.
You paged N'thei with 'You could have contacted Lanisa, or the 'public face' of Igen, as all three of us have been on, and explain. No, the desc stuff wasn't lifted verbatim. As for maps, leave it. I'll consider it a gift to the fortians I like.'.
You paged N'thei with ''Hey. All of the admins of the other weyrs got together and we're thinking of...' as you did with each other would have been entirely reasonable.'.
N'thei pages: I agree you should have been told; all I can do is apologize. If I could change it now, I would. --I don't know Lanisa? And I didn't know you, and I still don't know Kassima.
N'thei pages: It wasn't done like that. HRW decided we wanted to start this; P'draig has alts at Fort and Telgar, that's how they found out; Griere has an alt at HRW, that's how ISW found out.
You paged N'thei with 'How did Berit find out?'.
N'thei pages: From P'draig.
You paged N'thei with 'Who has known that I am A'deth for a long time. I had an alt at Telgar for a while who was also known to be A'deth. You can't tell me that not one person knew me, or knew others, because they did.'.
From afar, N'thei can't tell you that. I know. /And I apologize./ That's the end of it. That's all I can do.
N'thei pages: It doesn't change things. But I'm not going to keep going over what you think is a conspiracy. It was a /mistake/; I admit that. Either move on or... don't. That's your decision.
You paged N'thei with 'Do you have objections to my making this discussion available publicly, since I'm sure some folks might want to read what we've said and come to their own decisions?'.
N'thei pages: Not at all.
From afar, N'thei will also post it publicly.
Long distance to N'thei: Guest1 :3
From afar, N'thei's sorry we couldn't come to a more eye-to-eye conclusion, but hopefully people will at least see it wasn't all gunpowder-treason-and-plot.
You paged N'thei with 'Perhaps you should unify your message before you put on a public face?'.
N'thei pages: Perhaps we should.
From afar, N'thei has to go to the store now though, before the day slips away; thank you for taking the time to talk with me. It has brought to light where /we/ obviously need more communication.
Long distance to N'thei: Guest1 nods.


Unfortunately, I have since been told by multiple sources (and generally apolitical players) that he has at least lied about knowing about Tiriana's dislike of Igen.

If someone has to lie about his reasons and his actions, then I consider the legitimacy of those things in question.

Comments

(Anonymous)

book of all flesh

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